Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:05:21 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600 Subject: [UnixOS2_Archive] No. 569 ************************************************** Sunday 26 June 2005 Number 569 ************************************************** Subjects for today 1 Warpstock 2005 : Lewis G Rosenthal 2 Re: Warpstock 2005 : billn 3 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Yuri Dario" 4 Re: Warpstock 2005 : billn 5 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Lewis G Rosenthal 6 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Steven Levine" 7 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Lewis G Rosenthal 8 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Steven Levine" 9 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Lewis G Rosenthal 10 Re: Warpstock 2005 : Steven Levine" **= Email 1 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:58:28 -0400 From: Lewis G Rosenthal Subject: Warpstock 2005 You know, we have almost nothing in the way of leads for speakers on porting or ported apps for Warpstock Hershey this year. Would someone here kindly step up to the plate? BTW, who is planning on attending Warpstock in Hershey this year? I'd love to have a roundtable discussion concerning ported apps (what is needed, who is doing what, etc.). Thoughts on this idea? TIA -- Lewis ------------------------------------------------------------ Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE Rosenthal & Rosenthal, LLC Accountants / Network Consultants New York / Northern Virginia www.2rosenthals.com eComStation Consultants www.ecomstation.com Novell Users International www.novell.com/linux/truth Warpstock 2005 - Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6-9, 2005 www.warpstock.org ------------------------------------------------------------ **= Email 2 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:42:23 -0700 From: billn Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 I'll just offer a comment. I've been wanting to contribute to the porting effort, but I'm really confused about how to setup an OS/2 development system. The UnixOS2 site has a 'Getting Started' with 'major rework under way' which has been there for some time. I think this may be blocking more than just me. I also think that the infrastructure for OS/2 development needs to be packaged, with perhaps quarterly updates that take a known working development system and yields a better working development system. I'm an example of a programmer who likes to work on applications, but does not want to spend time working on infrastructure. In fact I'd be willing to donate a reasonable sum to whatever group kept the infrastructure up to date, paid on a release/update basis. I'd also like to see the infrastructure support the Ada language via the C++ compiler support. I have no idea whether that is currently supported, or out of date. But for what I want to do, it is a much better tool. So there's my $.02 worth. BillN Lewis G Rosenthal wrote: > > You know, we have almost nothing in the way of leads for speakers on > porting or ported apps for Warpstock Hershey this year. Would someone > here kindly step up to the plate? BTW, who is planning on attending > Warpstock in Hershey this year? I'd love to have a roundtable discussion > concerning ported apps (what is needed, who is doing what, etc.). > Thoughts on this idea? > > TIA > > -- > Lewis > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE > Rosenthal & Rosenthal, LLC > Accountants / Network Consultants > New York / Northern Virginia www.2rosenthals.com > eComStation Consultants www.ecomstation.com > Novell Users International www.novell.com/linux/truth > > Warpstock 2005 - Hershey, > Pennsylvania, October 6-9, 2005 www.warpstock.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > **= Email 3 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:08:38 +0200 (CDT) From: "Yuri Dario" Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 Hi, >I'll just offer a comment. I've been wanting to contribute to the >porting effort, but I'm really confused about how to setup an OS/2 >development system. did you read this? http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Porting Bye, Yuri Dario /* * member of TeamOS/2 - Italy * http://www.os2power.com/yuri * http://www.teamos2.it */ **= Email 4 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:22:50 -0700 From: billn Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 I was not aware of edm2. It is a big site with a lot of info, so I'll be doing some study. Thanks for the pointer. However, my comment re packaging still holds: If someone built an ISO image with required files with install script, then that would be what I had in mind. I can follow the instructions, but that means each and every one who uses it must go thru the step by step process, and probably wind up with differing setups. I think we need a standard setup with ways to select what we want to use, and maybe the eclipse IDE for our RAD. I know it can't be done overnight, but think about the overall time savings once such a system is in place. BillN Yuri Dario wrote: > > Hi, > > >I'll just offer a comment. I've been wanting to contribute to the > >porting effort, but I'm really confused about how to setup an OS/2 > >development system. > > did you read this? > > http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Porting > > Bye, > > Yuri Dario > > /* > * member of TeamOS/2 - Italy > * http://www.os2power.com/yuri > * http://www.teamos2.it > */ **= Email 5 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:30:20 -0400 From: Lewis G Rosenthal Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 Thanks, Bill. your points are well taken. Often, I feel like I'm the only schlumpf who has trouble getting a decent enough build platform together to do anything, and that everyone else either has a painting in his attic (a la Dorian Grey) or some magical little gcc gnome (gno pun intended) who sprinkles fairy dust on the computer to make it all work as it should. Yuri's pointer to the EDM/2 wiki is a good one. I didn't even know that information existed in such cogent form. However, I'd still like to see someone present on this at Warpstock, and perhaps go through the whole build system install. Maybe UX2BS is the answer to all of this, but I still have some difficulties with it (though it could just be my lack of basic skillset for this stuff). On 06/25/2005 01:42 pm, billn thus wrote : > I'll just offer a comment. I've been wanting to contribute to the > porting effort, but I'm really confused about how to setup an OS/2 > development system. The UnixOS2 site has a 'Getting Started' with 'major > rework under way' which has been there for some time. > > I think this may be blocking more than just me. I also think that the > infrastructure for OS/2 development needs to be packaged, with perhaps > quarterly updates that take a known working development system and > yields a better working development system. > > I'm an example of a programmer who likes to work on applications, but > does not want to spend time working on infrastructure. In fact I'd be > willing to donate a reasonable sum to whatever group kept the > infrastructure up to date, paid on a release/update basis. > > I'd also like to see the infrastructure support the Ada language via the > C++ compiler support. I have no idea whether that is currently > supported, or out of date. But for what I want to do, it is a much > better tool. > > So there's my $.02 worth. > > BillN > > > Lewis G Rosenthal wrote: > >> You know, we have almost nothing in the way of leads for speakers on >> porting or ported apps for Warpstock Hershey this year. Would someone >> here kindly step up to the plate? BTW, who is planning on attending >> Warpstock in Hershey this year? I'd love to have a roundtable discussion >> concerning ported apps (what is needed, who is doing what, etc.). >> Thoughts on this idea? >> >> TIA >> >> -- >> Lewis >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE >> Rosenthal & Rosenthal, LLC >> Accountants / Network Consultants >> New York / Northern Virginia www.2rosenthals.com >> eComStation Consultants www.ecomstation.com >> Novell Users International www.novell.com/linux/truth >> >> Warpstock 2005 - Hershey, >> Pennsylvania, October 6-9, 2005 www.warpstock.org >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > > > > -- Lewis ------------------------------------------------------------ Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE Rosenthal & Rosenthal, LLC Accountants / Network Consultants New York / Northern Virginia www.2rosenthals.com eComStation Consultants www.ecomstation.com Novell Users International www.novell.com/linux/truth Warpstock 2005 - Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6-9, 2005 www.warpstock.org ------------------------------------------------------------ **= Email 6 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:15:38 -0700 From: "Steven Levine" Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 In <42BDB0CC.2090806 at 2rosenthals.com>, on 06/25/05 at 03:30 PM, Lewis G Rosenthal said: >Often, I feel like I'm the >only schlumpf who has trouble getting a decent enough build platform >together to do anything, and that everyone else either has a painting in >his attic (a la Dorian Grey) or some magical little gcc gnome (gno pun >intended) who sprinkles fairy dust on the computer to make it all work >as it should. Anyone who has a decent build evironment has it only because they put the energy into setting it up and, when problems arose, they came out the cave long enough to ask questions and get the problems resolved. There's simply no other way. If one chooses to wait for someone else to set up something that just works on every one-off OS/2 box out there, I recommend they be prepared for a long wait. Things are better in some ways on other platforms because there are more developers working the issues, but things are far from perfect. Spend a little time on the mailing list for any significant application that is used on more than one platform and you will see that things are not really so different elsewhere. One list that comes to mind is the Octave list which I lurk on. Octave runs on a number of platforms and architectures and makes fail regularly for any of a number of different reasons. If one wants a homogeneous, ready made development platform, the only one I can think of is Windows. Even so, this is only true for some period of time until the platform owners decide to change the platform. Ask all the Visual Basic developers struggling to understand and convert to VB.NET. >Yuri's pointer to the EDM/2 wiki is a good one. This is another problem. OS/2 users as a group tend not to get out very much. The answers are out there. Often for the cost of asking a question or spending a bit of time with Google. >Maybe UX2BS is the answer to all of this, UX2BS, like everything else, is a partial solution. It's fine for building a number of standard applications with older versions of gcc. I find it's lack of integration with existing user setups a bit annoying, but that's just me. When the time comes that I need to build an app that is best built with UX2BS, I will install it and get it working and use it. Regards, Steven -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Steven Levine" MR2/ICE 2.67 #10183 Warp4.something/14.100c_W4 www.scoug.com irc.fyrelizard.com #scoug (Wed 7pm PST) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 7 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:44:01 -0400 From: Lewis G Rosenthal Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 Steve, your points concerning research are also well taken. However, that said, it still should not be such a project in and of itself to set up an adequate build platform. I also realize (and am reminded of this every time I have to compile something under Linux) that others platforms are equally tedious to similarly configure. In short, the need is still there, no matter how far away the reality may be. ___ Lewis ___ Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE Rosenthal & Rosenthal Sent via SnapperMail ....... Original Message ....... On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:15:38 -0700 "Steven Levine" wrote: >In <42BDB0CC.2090806 at 2rosenthals.com>, on 06/25/05 > at 03:30 PM, Lewis G Rosenthal said: > >>Often, I feel like I'm the >>only schlumpf who has trouble getting a decent enough build platform >>together to do anything, and that everyone else either has a painting in >>his attic (a la Dorian Grey) or some magical little gcc gnome (gno pun >>intended) who sprinkles fairy dust on the computer to make it all work >>as it should. > >Anyone who has a decent build evironment has it only because they put the >energy into setting it up and, when problems arose, they came out the cave >long enough to ask questions and get the problems resolved. > >There's simply no other way. If one chooses to wait for someone else to >set up something that just works on every one-off OS/2 box out there, I >recommend they be prepared for a long wait. > >Things are better in some ways on other platforms because there are more >developers working the issues, but things are far from perfect. Spend a >little time on the mailing list for any significant application that is >used on more than one platform and you will see that things are not really >so different elsewhere. One list that comes to mind is the Octave list >which I lurk on. Octave runs on a number of platforms and architectures >and makes fail regularly for any of a number of different reasons. > >If one wants a homogeneous, ready made development platform, the only one >I can think of is Windows. Even so, this is only true for some period of >time until the platform owners decide to change the platform. Ask all the >Visual Basic developers struggling to understand and convert to VB.NET. > >>Yuri's pointer to the EDM/2 wiki is a good one. > >This is another problem. OS/2 users as a group tend not to get out very >much. The answers are out there. Often for the cost of asking a question >or spending a bit of time with Google. > >>Maybe UX2BS is the answer to all of this, > >UX2BS, like everything else, is a partial solution. It's fine for >building a number of standard applications with older versions of gcc. I >find it's lack of integration with existing user setups a bit annoying, >but that's just me. When the time comes that I need to build an app that >is best built with UX2BS, I will install it and get it working and use it. > >Regards, > >Steven > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Steven Levine" MR2/ICE 2.67 #10183 Warp4.something/14.100c_W4 >www.scoug.com irc.fyrelizard.com #scoug (Wed 7pm PST) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > **= Email 8 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:46:19 -0700 From: "Steven Levine" Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 In <4161-SnapperMsg4EDDFFFDBEE38EC8 at [68.247.131.117]>, on 06/25/05 at 06:44 PM, Lewis G Rosenthal said: >Steve, your points concerning research are also well taken. However, that > said, it still should not be such a project in and of itself to set up >an adequate build platform. I hear this kind of stuff all the time. The reality is different. It is like saying that since Wireless technology is everywhere, anyone should be able to buy a couple of boxes off the shelf or from a mail order catalog and have a working hotspot. Life is often a bit more complex than we might wish it to be. I will continue to be of the opinion that if folks spent less time trying to get others to do things for them and just hunkered down and got their hands a bit dirty things would be better all around. I know that folks can do much more than they believe they are capable of. Just ask Mark Abramowitz what happened when he asked me to build a driver for his AirPrime wireless card. >In short, the need >is still there, no matter how far away the reality may be. IMO, the need is a perceived need rather than a realistic need. Regards, Steven -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Steven Levine" MR2/ICE 2.67 #10183 Warp4.something/14.100c_W4 www.scoug.com irc.fyrelizard.com #scoug (Wed 7pm PST) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 9 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:47:57 -0400 From: Lewis G Rosenthal Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 On 06/25/2005 08:46 pm, Steven Levine thus wrote : > In <4161-SnapperMsg4EDDFFFDBEE38EC8 at [68.247.131.117]>, on 06/25/05 > at 06:44 PM, Lewis G Rosenthal said: > > >> Steve, your points concerning research are also well taken. However, that >> said, it still should not be such a project in and of itself to set up >> an adequate build platform. >> > > I hear this kind of stuff all the time. The reality is different. It is > like saying that since Wireless technology is everywhere, anyone should be > able to buy a couple of boxes off the shelf or from a mail order catalog > and have a working hotspot. And at Hautspot.com, that's exactly how it works!! Provisioning the AP is a matter of making two entries in the web interface in the box. On the server, I just need to enter the venue details in the captive portal page. Plug the AP into the broadband, it finds the jabber server on the far side (my server), logs in, and the hotspot is up and running. No muss, no fuss. > Life is often a bit more complex than we > might wish it to be. > True, but again, that doesn't mean that it should be more complex. I agree with you: setting up a build system IS tedious. I just believe that we should strive toward making it less so. > I will continue to be of the opinion that if folks spent less time trying > to get others to do things for them and just hunkered down and got their > hands a bit dirty things would be better all around. I know that folks > can do much more than they believe they are capable of. Just ask Mark > Abramowitz what happened when he asked me to build a driver for his > AirPrime wireless card. > > Your point is very valid. However, if I could spend less time getting the ! at #$ing build environment set up and working, I could spend more time actually BUILDing with it. Oh, and BTW, is that driver publicly available? More details, man!! ;-) >> In short, the need >> is still there, no matter how far away the reality may be. >> > > IMO, the need is a perceived need rather than a realistic need. > *I* have the need. So, the need may not be there for you, my friend, but it is for me. :-) Cheers. -- Lewis ------------------------------------------------------------ Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLE Rosenthal & Rosenthal, LLC Accountants / Network Consultants New York / Northern Virginia www.2rosenthals.com eComStation Consultants www.ecomstation.com Novell Users International www.novell.com/linux/truth Warpstock 2005 - Hershey, Pennsylvania, October 6-9, 2005 www.warpstock.org ------------------------------------------------------------ **= Email 10 ==========================** Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:12:25 -0700 From: "Steven Levine" Subject: Re: Warpstock 2005 In <42BE094D.4070007 at 2rosenthals.com>, on 06/25/05 at 09:47 PM, Lewis G Rosenthal said: >the server, I just need to enter the venue details in the captive portal >page. Plug the AP into the broadband, it finds the jabber server on the >far side (my server), logs in, and the hotspot is up and running. No >muss, no fuss. I see and the jabber server just magically appeared and you picked the Hautspot equipment first try with no R&D effort on your part. Let's see and you've never had to stare at one of these setups wondering why it chose not to work at some particular moment. >True, but again, that doesn't mean that it should be more complex. I >agree with you: setting up a build system IS tedious. I just believe >that we should strive toward making it less so. The only way that will happen is if those that find it complex make concrete contributions to the process of making it easier for others like them. >However, if I could spend less time getting >the ! at #$ing build environment set up and working, I could spend more >time actually BUILDing with it. It would be nice if this could just happen magically, but it won't. >*I* have the need. So, the need may not be there for you, my friend, but >it is for me. :-) My work environment is what it is because I've made the effort to make it so not because I complained about the facts of life. Regards, Steven -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Steven Levine" MR2/ICE 2.67 #10183 Warp4.something/14.100c_W4 www.scoug.com irc.fyrelizard.com #scoug (Wed 7pm PST) ----------------------------------------------------------------------