From: UnixOS2 Archive To: "UnixOS2 Archive" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:40:48 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600 Subject: [UnixOS2_Archive] No. 369 ************************************************** Tuesday 12 November 2002 Number 369 ************************************************** Subjects for today 1 eComStation : Dave Webster 2 RE: eComStation : Dave Webster 3 mailinglist & newsservers : Adrian Gschwend" 4 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : John Poltorak 5 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Adrian Gschwend" 6 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Michel Such" 7 RE: eComStation : Dave Webster 8 eComStation : Kees de LezenneCoulander 9 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Adrian Gschwend" 10 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : John Poltorak 11 Re: eComStation : Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW)" 12 Re: eComStation : Adrian Gschwend" 13 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW)" 14 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Adrian Gschwend" 15 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : John Poltorak 16 Re: eComStation : Kris Steenhaut 17 Re: mailinglist & newsservers : Jeff Robinson 18 OT: Re: eComStation : Adrian Gschwend" 19 Re: eComStation : Jack Troughton 20 Re: installpkg : Michael Zolk 21 Re: Should the default shell for unixos2 protect/modify backslashes in the PATH ? : Michael Zolk **= Email 1 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:24:27 -0600 From: Dave Webster Subject: eComStation Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 release that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? Info sure is sketchy on this. **= Email 2 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:01:04 -0600 From: Dave Webster Subject: RE: eComStation Thank you. The official eComStation site is oddly silent about the whole thing. Even the ECS forums and newsgroups have near nothing to say. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Gschwend [mailto:ktk at datacomm.ch] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:22 AM To: os2-unix at eyup.org Subject: Re: eComStation On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:24:27 -0600, Dave Webster wrote: Hi Dave, >Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 release >that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? Info sure is >sketchy on this. AFAIK they never wrote that it will be ready at WSE, all they told is that they will have updates about it at WSE. I haven't seen the eCS sessions to be honest (was busy with many other nice things :-). I will ask a friend which talked to Kim about it, he should know more. Will let you know ASAP. BTW Warpstock Europe was simply great, I've been at every WSE event so far and once in the USA too but this time was simply the best event. It was a great atmosphere and the air was full of great ideas and projects (some existing, some new). We discussed some very nice ideas with the netlabs.org developers, expect more to come early 2003. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 3 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:27:26 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: mailinglist & newsservers Hi all, I plan some enhancements at netlabs.org for our projects. So far we have mailinglists for most projects at netlabs but I want to get rid of them because many are at yahoo and those get massively spammed since a few months (not to mention the stupid ads in the webinterface). So I plan to go for a combined mail/news solution. That means every project gets a newsgroup and for those out there who prefer mailinglists I will set up a news/mail gateway (and vice versa for sure). Now I asked for some recommendations and I got: INN as newsreader: http://www.isc.org/products/INN/ As mailinglist recommendation I got: qmail+ezmlm and postfix+mailman, which are both able to do VERP (Variable Envelope Return Path, unsubscribes bounces automatically) INN is forking for each connection, but I hope that won't be a problem in the future so I could live with it right now. Since I am lazy I thought I will ask first about those applications, are some of them already ported? If so in which stadium. Or does anyone has other recommendations? cu & thanks Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 4 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:40:53 +0000 From: John Poltorak Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 10:27:26AM +0100, Adrian Gschwend wrote: > Now I asked for some recommendations and I got: > > INN as newsreader: http://www.isc.org/products/INN/ > > As mailinglist recommendation I got: qmail+ezmlm > and postfix+mailman, which are both able to do VERP (Variable Envelope > Return Path, unsubscribes bounces automatically) > > INN is forking for each connection, but I hope that won't be a problem > in the future so I could live with it right now. Since I am lazy I > thought I will ask first about those applications, are some of them > already ported? *None* of them are ported, AFAIK. Mailman *may* work since it is a Python app, and we do have an up to date version, but I didn't get it to work last time I tried, which was some time ago. This list uses Majordomo and Sendmail, but the Majordomo is one which I have tinkered with for my own use. I don't think it is in a fit state to be passed on to anyone else to use. INN is something I would like to see ported. > If so in which stadium. Or does anyone has other > recommendations? I think the only solutions available are proprietary OS/2 solutions. > cu & thanks > > Adrian > > > -- > Adrian Gschwend > at netlabs.org > > ktk [a t] netlabs.org > ------- > Free Software for OS/2 and eCS > http://www.netlabs.org > -- John **= Email 5 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:03:28 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:40:53 +0000, John Poltorak wrote: >*None* of them are ported, AFAIK. ok, too bad. >Mailman *may* work since it is a Python app, and we do have an up to date >version, but I didn't get it to work last time I tried, which was some >time ago. I tend to avoid scripts that need another environment set up, I prefer small little c apps :-) Didn't know that mailman is using Python. >INN is something I would like to see ported. probably I have to try it when noone else can help me about that. Will have a look at it after my diploma work (ends end of december). >I think the only solutions available are proprietary OS/2 solutions. The configuration of them is not really what I am looking for. I use them so far but the used ini files make them hard to configure by scripts. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 6 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:35:33 +0100 (CET) From: "Michel Such" Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers You could take alook on Peter Moylan's site. He has a mailing manager and also I think a news server. http://murray.newcastle.edu.au/users/staff/peter/Moylan.html These apps are pure OS/2, not ports. Michel SUCH - Team OS/2 France - msuch at free.fr ICQ # 51654489 **= Email 7 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:47:12 -0600 From: Dave Webster Subject: RE: eComStation I guess that's all fine and well. All I need or want, is the base OS and nice browser anyway. Can live without the apps as I'm a software developer and have little use for Office Suites and other things of that sort. What I do need, though is a reliable OS, with good device driver support with drivers for the latest hardware delivered in a timely fashion, easy access to the latest OS patches and a reliable, full featured TCPIP stack. Seems to be taking a long time for an OS release that is being sold for it's installation utility and not much else. -----Original Message----- From: Kees de LezenneCoulander [mailto:lezenne at compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:08 PM To: INTERNET:os2-unix at eyup.org Subject: eComStation Dave Webster wrote: >Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 >release that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? >Info sure is sketchy on this. There was no big eComStation event at which announcements were made. But there was a presentation about the improved installation procedures by two members of the (Mensys) team. And Mensys was selling eComStation 1.1 at a pre-order basis and at special event prices. It was _hoped_ to be ready for distribution before the end of the year. It was all very low-key. I do not think there are any big changes in eCS itself. The most interesting feature is that the base operating system and the application pack will now be sold separately. This is a good idea in my opinion, and it certainly makes the base OS (now called Entry Pack for some strange reason) a lot cheaper. Kim Cheung had come over from the U.S. to make a special announcement about something very exciting, but in the end he was not permitted to say anything because the final contracts had not yet been signed. He was very proud though of the 75000 demo eCS 1.1 CD's which had been distributed on the cover of some German computer magazine. More such deals are apparently in the making. Both Kim and some members of the Mensys team were saying that they were going to make one final attempt at selling outside the traditional OS/2 user group. Kees de Lezenne Coulander **= Email 8 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:07:46 -0500 From: Kees de LezenneCoulander Subject: eComStation Dave Webster wrote: >Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 >release that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? >Info sure is sketchy on this. There was no big eComStation event at which announcements were made. But there was a presentation about the improved installation procedures by two members of the (Mensys) team. And Mensys was selling eComStation 1.1 at a pre-order basis and at special event prices. It was _hoped_ to be ready for distribution before the end of the year. It was all very low-key. I do not think there are any big changes in eCS itself. The most interesting feature is that the base operating system and the application pack will now be sold separately. This is a good idea in my opinion, and it certainly makes the base OS (now called Entry Pack for some strange reason) a lot cheaper. Kim Cheung had come over from the U.S. to make a special announcement about something very exciting, but in the end he was not permitted to say anything because the final contracts had not yet been signed. He was very proud though of the 75000 demo eCS 1.1 CD's which had been distributed on the cover of some German computer magazine. More such deals are apparently in the making. Both Kim and some members of the Mensys team were saying that they were going to make one final attempt at selling outside the traditional OS/2 user group. Kees de Lezenne Coulander **= Email 9 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:10:21 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:35:33 +0100 (CET), Michel Such wrote: >You could take alook on Peter Moylan's site. >He has a mailing manager and also I think a news server. >http://murray.newcastle.edu.au/users/staff/peter/Moylan.html yes I use his mailinglist server but there is no news server. As I said it takes ini files as configuration and that makes generation out of my database with script quite hard (not that it's not possible but it's more work with ini files). >These apps are pure OS/2, not ports. I use them and they work quite good, unfortunately they have some restrictions in functionality compared to the u*ix versions. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 10 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:45:29 +0000 From: John Poltorak Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 02:10:21PM +0100, Adrian Gschwend wrote: > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:35:33 +0100 (CET), Michel Such wrote: > > >You could take alook on Peter Moylan's site. > >He has a mailing manager and also I think a news server. > >http://murray.newcastle.edu.au/users/staff/peter/Moylan.html > > yes I use his mailinglist server but there is no news server. CHANGI is a free newsserver for OS/2. > >These apps are pure OS/2, not ports. > > I use them and they work quite good, unfortunately they have some > restrictions in functionality compared to the u*ix versions. The Unix versions are also free and likely to have been tested and used by a substantial number of people. As a result they are likely to be more robust. > cu > > Adrian > > > -- > Adrian Gschwend > at netlabs.org > > ktk [a t] netlabs.org > ------- > Free Software for OS/2 and eCS > http://www.netlabs.org -- John **= Email 11 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:17:41 +0100 (CET) From: "Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW)" Subject: Re: eComStation On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:24:27 -0600, Dave Webster wrote: >Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 release >that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? Info sure is >sketchy on this. Planned release is sometime between Dec 02 and Jan 03. Sebastian **= Email 12 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:21:46 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: Re: eComStation On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:24:27 -0600, Dave Webster wrote: Hi Dave, >Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 release >that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? Info sure is >sketchy on this. AFAIK they never wrote that it will be ready at WSE, all they told is that they will have updates about it at WSE. I haven't seen the eCS sessions to be honest (was busy with many other nice things :-). I will ask a friend which talked to Kim about it, he should know more. Will let you know ASAP. BTW Warpstock Europe was simply great, I've been at every WSE event so far and once in the USA too but this time was simply the best event. It was a great atmosphere and the air was full of great ideas and projects (some existing, some new). We discussed some very nice ideas with the netlabs.org developers, expect more to come early 2003. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 13 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:50 +0100 (CET) From: "Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW)" Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:27:26 +0100 (CET), Adrian Gschwend wrote: >So I plan to go for a combined mail/news solution. That means every >project gets a newsgroup and for those out there who prefer >mailinglists I will set up a news/mail gateway (and vice versa for >sure). Have you spoken to Allan Holm (alh at fabel.dk)? He has set up the same (plus web interface) for the eCS mailing list. Sebastian **= Email 14 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:36:07 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:50 +0100 (CET), Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW) wrote: >Have you spoken to Allan Holm (alh at fabel.dk)? >He has set up the same (plus web interface) for the eCS mailing list. nope but I guess he is using CHANGI. That's good if we would have source of it but we don't. I asked the author several times for it (he writes in the docu that it's possible to get it) but without luck so far. And I don't like to rely on closed source software for such things. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 15 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:47:11 +0000 From: John Poltorak Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 04:36:07PM +0100, Adrian Gschwend wrote: > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:50 +0100 (CET), Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW) > wrote: > > >Have you spoken to Allan Holm (alh at fabel.dk)? > >He has set up the same (plus web interface) for the eCS mailing list. > > nope but I guess he is using CHANGI. That's good if we would have > source of it but we don't. I asked the author several times for it (he > writes in the docu that it's possible to get it) but without luck so > far. And I don't like to rely on closed source software for such > things. Unfortunately that is the only option for running under OS/2 :-(.. I am not aware of anyone porting INN so far, but I would be interested in trying out a port. If it is written properly, should there be much trouble in getting it compiled on OS/2? We already have ports of many Unix daemons such as Sendmail, Apache, BIND, INETD. Not sure why INN would be any trickier... > cu > > Adrian > > > -- > Adrian Gschwend > at netlabs.org > > ktk [a t] netlabs.org > ------- > Free Software for OS/2 and eCS > http://www.netlabs.org > -- John **= Email 16 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:50:05 +0100 From: Kris Steenhaut Subject: Re: eComStation Dave Webster schreef: > Been poking around and haven't hear anything about eComStation 1.1 release > that was supposed to happen at WarpStock Europe. Did it? No it didn't. And as far as I could made my guess, it will take at least another 2 months. But Mensys people even refuse to have that confirmed, btw. -- Groeten uit Gent, Kris **= Email 17 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:54:32 -0600 From: Jeff Robinson Subject: Re: mailinglist & newsservers John Poltorak wrote: > On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 04:36:07PM +0100, Adrian Gschwend wrote: > >>On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:50 +0100 (CET), Sebastian Wittmeier (ShadoW) >>wrote: >> >> >>>Have you spoken to Allan Holm (alh at fabel.dk)? >>>He has set up the same (plus web interface) for the eCS mailing list. >> >>nope but I guess he is using CHANGI. That's good if we would have >>source of it but we don't. I asked the author several times for it (he >>writes in the docu that it's possible to get it) but without luck so >>far. And I don't like to rely on closed source software for such >>things. > > > Unfortunately that is the only option for running under OS/2 :-(.. > > I am not aware of anyone porting INN so far, but I would be interested in > trying out a port. If it is written properly, should there be much > trouble in getting it compiled on OS/2? We already have ports of many > Unix daemons such as Sendmail, Apache, BIND, INETD. Not sure why INN > would be any trickier... > > Maybe this would be another suitable project to lump into UnixOS2 then... see what tools are needed to compile INN and use it as sort've a test-case. Sort've just a project to focus on for a while that might also expose some things we haven't really come across yet (needed tools, "environment concerns", etc.) I think it would be interesting as well to have everything needed to support the UnixOS2 project compiled as part of it. Just a thought, Jeff -- ---------------- Whatza JamochaMUD? http://jamochamud.anecho.mb.ca Or other stuff: http://www.anecho.mb.ca/~jeffnik ----------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 18 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:10:52 +0100 (CET) From: "Adrian Gschwend" Subject: OT: Re: eComStation On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:50:05 +0100, Kris Steenhaut wrote: >No it didn't. And as far as I could made my guess, it will take at least >another 2 months. But Mensys people even refuse to have that confirmed, btw. Which makes sense IMHO because the worst thing about software are promised release dates :-) I know that people get somewhat pissed about the release data of 1.1 but I prefer to have a good working install instead of a hack that works... or not. cu Adrian -- Adrian Gschwend at netlabs.org ktk [a t] netlabs.org ------- Free Software for OS/2 and eCS http://www.netlabs.org **= Email 19 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:40:18 -0500 From: Jack Troughton Subject: Re: eComStation Dave Webster wrote: > I guess that's all fine and well. All I need or want, is the base OS and > nice browser anyway. Can live without the apps as I'm a software > developer > and have little use for Office Suites and other things of that sort. > What I > do need, though is a reliable OS, with good device driver support with > drivers for the latest hardware delivered in a timely fashion, easy access > to the latest OS patches and a reliable, full featured TCPIP stack. Seems > to be taking a long time for an OS release that is being sold for it's > installation utility and not much else. First... I'm the Canadian distributor, so accusations of bias are probably correct;) Well, my point of view on it is that we'd much rather take our time and do it once properly rather than doing it fast and releasing something broken. I think you'll also find it's not being sold for just its installation utility. Finally, the reason why we have put so much emphasis on the installation utility is simple: People, when introduced to warp on a running system, and given the chance to use it, tend to end up really liking it. My mom is one good example of this phenom... I put it on a PC for her, and now she uses it all the time in preference to Windows because her needs are simple and it doesn't break like Windows does. Her install is almost two years old now and going strong... Windows used to be reinstalled at least every six months at her house. She likes that... gets to write letters, do email, etc and has gotten over her fear of fscking it up. However, were she to be faced with trying to install it... forget it. We want to reach people like that. We can only reach people like that if the install routine is as easy as or easier than Windows. eCS 1.0 was definitely not like that... if you didn't follow the (voluminous) instructions to the letter you could end up with a very badly pooched install. Also, there are a lot of machines where the CD boot didn't work at all, which meant it was time to start messing around with floppies etc... most people simply won't bother. Hell, a fair number (I can think of at least six) of eCS customers when faced with that very situation didn't bother. If we want the platform to survive more than another few years, we need to grow the userbase. There's no way around it... if the userbase continues on its current path, the platform will be gone (killed by IBM) in two to three years. The only way we can forestall that eventuality is by attracting new users... and that means that the install can't be a pig. Another way to put it... if we don't get the install right, it will in essence mean that there is zero chance for the platform to survive in the medium term (let alone the long term). If we get it right, the chances are still not fantastic, but they are at least >0. We all think it's _very important_ that we get it right. Besides, how can you hate an install that's going to let you put drivers on a floppy disk and use them whilst booting off the CD? It'll be a while before the driver set you'll need to boot that new petaherz system's going to fill up your fave love-to-hate removable media:) Regards, Jack **= Email 20 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:56:30 +0100 From: Michael Zolk Subject: Re: installpkg On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 12:26:30AM +0100, Andreas Buening wrote: > > I guess this would be me :) Have you seen the latest version I uploaded > > recently? I tried to change the directory structure to comply with the FHS. > > Not yet. I would appreciate it if some of you could check if the directory structure is OK now. Changing it at a later date would probably mean a bit of trouble for everybody :> > > I'd like to keep installpkg relatively small. One idea would be > > to include scripts or small exes in the ux2_base pkg that perform these > > common tasks like replacing/adding drive letters, creating desktop objects, > > modifying configuration files. > > No. Every maintainer should be able to add an installation script > to "his" package without bothering the ux2_base maintainer. Of course every maintainer can write his own script and put it in /install. What I meant was that these scripts should probably somehow rely on e.g. other Rexx scripts that do things like those mentioned above in a standardized way, e.g. it would be possible to write something like "CALL abspath.cmd '/usr/bin/shellscript.sh'" in a rexx install script to expand the pathnames in shellscript.sh. > I think installpkd should also not execute scripts specified > by the SCRIPT keyword due to the following reason: > If a user installs e.g. a library as the first package then it's not > possible to execute any sh script because there is no sh.exe or any > other GNU tool. This is indeed a problem. I don't know how all the Linux distros handle this. This is the reason why all the scripts in ux2_base are Rexx scripts - they only need the stuff that's already present on an OS/2 system. I'm not sure if we should simply define that install scripts _have to be_ Rexx scripts. >It might be a better idea to write all the info > from the SCRIPT keyword and the proposed SCRIPTFILE1 and SCRIPTFILE2 > into a file in the /var tree so that one tool "ux2-update" can > run all necessary scripts and perform any necessary file modification > after the last package has been installed. > > > > They could then be called from the > > post-install script without the package maintainers having to reinvent the > > wheel every time. > > Yes. And if the post-install script saves all the necessary commands > in another file then this procedure can be repeated every time. > I.e. if the user decides to move his UNIXROOT from e: to d:, then > he copies all files and runs "ux2-update --reconfig-everthing" > and all the post-install stuff will be executed as if it were the > first install. The install scripts and the PKGINFO files are already stored under /var - /var/lib/unixos2 in the next version. It should be possible to use this information to do something like this. > > I did it this way because it should be easier to handle locked files or > > other errors this way. > > That's true. However, it'll definitely too slow for a zip file of > several hundred files. And if you have hundreds of them ... :-) > I don't know an immediate solution. Maybe installpkg just unpacks > the archive into a temporary directory (/var/tmp/install.tmp?). > If that's successfull it _moves_ all files into their correct > position. I guess this would be a solution. Michael -- NP: Motörhead - Born to raise hell **= Email 21 ==========================** Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:15:44 +0100 From: Michael Zolk Subject: Re: Should the default shell for unixos2 protect/modify backslashes in the PATH ? On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 11:43:59PM +0100, Andreas Buening wrote: [directory separators] > To be more exactly: A file /etc/unixroot/config.site should > be part of the UnixOS/2 base package with the recommendation > for all developers (i.e.: it's an optional env. var.) to set > CONFIG_SITE=$UNIXROOT/etc/unixroot/config.site. If config.site is a part of autoconf which is only needed when compiling apps, then it should not go into the base package IMO. Michael -- NP: Motörhead - The chase is better than the catch